Reader Mary Claire has given me permission to share this response to my recent post so we can discuss some of the issues she raises. This is an emotional topic for many people, so if my responses seem a little clinical, it’s only because I’m trying to reason my way through a subject that has more to do with instinct and compulsion than reason. I take her response very seriously, even when I disagree.
She writes:
I think that I don't want to go in front of the judge for my rape case(for instance), his having reading himself to sleep over playboy or any other light or heavy porn and then facing me in the courtroom the next morning. He could well be wondering perhaps just what my vagina looked like instead of the real issues at hand, having so recently experienced a large dose of 'girlie as object' and vaginas to peek into. I don't like the idea of objectification that girlie magazines promote. I'm very uncomfortable seeing such magazines in the back pockets of guys on the street. I had a husband once, who could not understand my not accepting porn. He maintained he was just looking, what's wrong with that? He seemed to think it was a place to learn. Men do rely on the girlie zines to learn. Isn't that sad. It used to be sacred and men were blessed with the knowledge of pleasing. It's key to why some want to see women together. they (some/many) don't have a clue, nor care and think that that other woman will give them insight
Why on earth would marketing some people simulating non-consensual sex be any more ok than non-consensual sex? wouldn't that be make-a-believe rape? kind of reinforcing 'no' means 'yes' mentality. i don't get it. pretending to be having sex against your will for entertainment? to me that's very close to pretending to be beaten or choked or fucked by a bottle and calling it ok, because it is consensual. porn is usually consensual. for a buck, for the drug, for a high. You said pictures of this. You may as well go all the way and have pictures of all kinds of pretence and as long as it is pretense, it is ok. Answers to all this are big big big and I'm not going to sleep well tonight.
I have a child in my life that grabbed his librarian by the ass. he was a sixth grader. That was a sexual overture. A sixth grader! Some of his family members were alarmed that he got charged as a juvenile sex offender. She wore short skirts and asked for that kind of behavior. You are way beyond the times and i love you for that . . . but personally I get so confused over the sex stuff. . . accept my comments (for this is the first time I've participated) with a granny grain of salt. I'm wanting to be of the mind 'do your thing as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, but where have we gotten to that sex needs to be anything but loving, and fun? What's loving and fun about pretending to be having sex against your will? Where have we come from to need whips and make believe chains to have loving and fun sex? fantasy. I believe that the fantasy sex is a an addiction that needs more and more and more and i don't trust where that takes members of our society. What's the beef with real and loving and fun sex? Loving and fun sex doesn't need to be a something to protect your children from having knowledge of.
I'm starting to rant. sorry.
love and blessings,
mary claire
I understand the emotion behind the example of a Judge in a rape case, but it is emotion and not based in the realities of the world we live in. The existence of pornography doesn’t cause sexual obsession any more than the lack of it would preclude a Judge focusing on the wrong things. We all hope that a Judge would have an appropriate sense of gravity in a criminal case. We live in a world where this doesn’t always happen. Judges and public defenders in Texas have been known to fall asleep during capital murder cases in which innocent people may have been executed. There are many factors that might prejudice a judge in a rape case, including religious background, patriarchal conditioning, misogyny and the old “boys will be boys” attitude that is pervasive in patriarchal institutions. Pornography is the least of my worries in that respect.
I had a husband once, who could not understand my not accepting porn. He maintained he was just looking, what's wrong with that?
I know that some women feel this way, but I have to admit that I don’t understand it. My partners and I always enjoyed porn together. If anything, I liked more extreme stuff than they did. (I always seemed to attract guys who were more conservative than I.) I don’t find it threatening, and most of it is so dumb I can’ take it seriously.
He seemed to think it was a place to learn. Men do rely on the girlie zines to learn. Isn't that sad.
That’s really sad. Unfortunately, it’s the logical result of our erotophobic culture. Women are raised to be inhibited (though that’s changing, thank Goddess,) and politicians and preachers benefit from keeping people repressed. I think it’s pretty pathetic that most people know so little about sex, and have so many inhibitions. We’ll never be a healthy society until American moves past its sexual adolescence.
It used to be sacred and men were blessed with the knowledge of pleasing. It's key to why some want to see women together. they (some/many) don't have a clue, nor care and think that that other woman will give them insight.
When? That’s the way sex should be, but it never existed in the culture at large after the advent of patriarchy. Men want to see women together because they’re homophobic. There’s no guy there to make him feel threatened. I’m part of a subculture of women who like seeing two men together, primarily because women are conditioned to compete with each other. Instead of being distracted by how we measure up to the girl on the screen, we can focus on the sex. Men can enjoy the sex without risk of having an uncomfortable reaction to the guy. Americans need a whole new kind of sex education, and I feel it’s more productive to work toward creating that than to expend energy in trying to control media – prohibition only benefits criminals. With out Prohibition, there would have been no Al Capone. Legalize pot, and 1 in 7 adults will no longer be incarcerated. Make sex a healthy normal part of life and there’s less need for artificial outlets.
Why on earth would marketing some people simulating non-consensual sex be any more ok than non-consensual sex?
Because no one is being harmed in the simulation.
Wouldn't that be make-a-believe rape? kind of reinforcing 'no' means 'yes' mentality. i don't get it. pretending to be having sex against your will for entertainment? to me that's very close to pretending to be beaten or choked or fucked by a bottle and calling it ok, because it is consensual. porn is usually consensual. for a buck, for the drug, for a high. You said pictures of this. You may as well go all the way and have pictures of all kinds of pretence and as long as it is pretense, it is ok. Answers to all this are big big big and I'm not going to sleep well tonight.
I’m not sure why you’re going to lose sleep over this, but let’s look at the “high” you are talking about. Healthy people enjoy an endorphin rush, but unhealthy people can become addicted to sex just as they can anything else. There are people who pretend all the things you listed and more. There are people who pay others to simulated those things for them. I have a good friend who worked as a dominatrix for years. I would much rather have her clients go to a sex worker than to keep their obsessions bottled up, because that kind of compulsion demands expression. Better to do it in a controlled environment. I’d love to live in a culture that doesn’t produce people with sado-masochistic tendencies, but I don’t. Pretending that doesn’t exist and suppressing access to materials or situations that allow those tendencies to be assuaged is only going to create more violent acting out. That would be like taking a pill to mask pain while allowing a tumor to continue to grow. It might make you feel good in the moment, but you’re going to deal with worse later on. We have to deal realistically with the bad imprints that exist while we create an environment that stops producing them.
I have a child in my life that grabbed his librarian by the ass. he was a sixth grader. That was a sexual overture. A sixth grader! Some of his family members were alarmed that he got charged as a juvenile sex offender. She wore short skirts and asked for that kind of behavior.
So you have an abused or neglected 12- 13 year old acting out in a sexual way. My question is – is he in counseling? Have the parents been censured for allowing a child in their care to be exposed to information or activities not appropriate for a child his age? Have they been taught to do better? Bad parenting is a symptom of the larger problem we are talking about. People can’t tell the difference in censorship and parenting, or an overture and an assault. I don’t think children should be exposed to sexual content of any kind. Children should be taught to respect their fellow human beings. Do that when they’re young, and the debate we’re having becomes moot.
You are way beyond the times and i love you for that . . . but personally I get so confused over the sex stuff. . . accept my comments (for this is the first time I've participated) with a granny grain of salt.
Thank you for your kind words. I know that people can become very confused with sex – it’s a complex, very human subject. We aren’t computers, and we don’t come with instruction manuals so the best approach is not always obvious, and one solution may not apply in every situation or with every individual. Don’t hesitate to participate. As I said, I’m working on these ideas – it’s good to hear other views. It helps me to clarify things in my own mind.
I'm wanting to be of the mind 'do your thing as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, but where have we gotten to that sex needs to be anything but loving, and fun? What's loving and fun about pretending to be having sex against your will? Where have we come from to need whips and make believe chains to have loving and fun sex?
Again, this is not a new problem. Repression was born in the desert about 6,000 years ago and it created cultures where children are molested and sold, women beaten to death and traded as property, and normal sexuality inhibited with ancient mores, veils and lies. I perceive that we’d both like a world where sex is loving and fun. We just disagree on how to get there from here.
fantasy. I believe that the fantasy sex is a an addiction that needs more and more and more and i don't trust where that takes members of our society. What's the beef with real and loving and fun sex? Loving and fun sex doesn't need to be a something to protect your children from having knowledge of.
I'm starting to rant. sorry.
love and blessings,
mary claire
Sexual fantasy is healthy and normal, and will always exist. The deviant imprints I’m talking about are born of neglect, abuse or trauma of some sort. Once that imprint exists, we have to deal with it one way or another. I prefer approaches that protect other people from being victimized, which can only perpetuate the cycle. The imprinted trauma isn’t going to go away. With some serious education and social reform, we can reduce the number of people who are traumatized, but in the mean time, we have to deal with the ones that exist.
I don’t think you are ranting. I do think your reaction is understandable, and not an uncommon one. I’m sure more people feel the way you do than the way I do. I want to know how we work past the frustration you are feeling and create a culture that works, with a stated goal of making life better for everyone. That involves dealing with some very unpleasant realities. Our legal system as it exists now is only making matters worse, and the schools aren’t helping things, either.
I am in despair at the course our culture is taking. I can’t understand why we aren’t doing better in every aspect of life. We have enough food to feed everyone, but we don’t. We have enough wealth and resources to see that everyone has shelter, clothing, and basics like electricity and plumbing, but we don’t. We have the greatest communications system ever known, and can speak to the other side of the globe, but we still fight wars that benefit no one but the rich. We have free education and public libraries, but 1 in 6 Americans can’t read. The people in power in our government are corrupt and self-serving. Elections don’t matter if the machines can and are tampered with, so I don’t see anything improving any time soon. I can’t just relax and let the world go to hell around me, as I’ve been advised to do.
I believe that the more we talk, the closer we get to the change we so desperately need.