7:06 Six minutes into the debate, Clinton argues that her healthcare plan covers all Americans and blah, blah, blah. She argues that she will make healthcare affordable. But that skirts the dispute over the mailer: what will Clinton’s healthcare plan include as a mandate? Will she require all Americans to purchase healthcare — as is the definition of a mandate? If that’s the case, than how does she get around folks who, under her mandate, have to purchase healthcare but who can’t afford it?
Unless Hillary’s plan exists in a separate world where every American will find her plan affordable. Which is completely unrealistic. By virtue of her mandate that all Americans purchase healthcare, she is going to require that Americans who can’t afford healthcare purchase it.
It’s not a false charge from Obama; her “shame on you” criticism is baseless.
7:10 Is anyone else tired of this debate? Really, neither Clinton nor Obama say anything new on the topic of healthcare. Clinton keeps repeating that Obama has a mandate in his plan: yes, he does. For children, because they can’t make the decision to (or not) purchase healthcare on their own. Does Clinton believe that all Americans should be treated as if they are children, incapable of making their own decision on their own?
Clinton also argues that Democrats fundamentally believe in universal healthcare. That’s true, but Clinton is no more “providing” universal healthcare than Obama is: both plans require families to purchase healthcare — the only sticking point is whether or not that action be mandated or not.
Under Obama’s plan, anybody who wants healthcare will be able to purchase it, but his plan allows Americans who honestly feel like they cannot afford healthcare will not have to purchase it. His plan does not take money from poor Americans, punishing them for being in poverty.
7:14 Clinton raises Obama’s mandate for children — Obama needs to respond: “Hillary, do you believe that adult Americans should be treated like children, like they do not know how to spend their money?” He needs to be that harsh. Please, Obama, bring that up.
Second, Clinton raises the point that Social Security and Medicare would falter if they were optional. True, but Social Security and Medicare have already been criticized for over-taxing lower-income Americans to pay for it.
7:17 Dammit, Barack. Clinton brings up the stat that 20% of uninsured can afford insurance: be straight with her. Ask her if she really believes she knows how to spend Americans’ money better than Americans do?
7:18 Clinton sounds very much like a bulldog on this subject. I think she may be coming off as too ardent, especially because she has nothing substantially different to say everytime she interrupts Obama on this subject.
7:19 The hell? Clinton is actually referring to the SNL skit — implying that the moderators are being unfair to her by tossing her the first question? Oh. My God. Talk about childish: Clinton is just lashing out at anybody within reach. I wouldn’t recommend pissing off the media — but hey, she’s already okay with alienating more than 50% of Democratic voters.
The question is about NAFTA. Frankly, I think Clinton’s back-pedalling from her stance on NAFTA during the Clinton years strikes untrue. Clinton has flip-flopped on NAFTA, being both for and against it depending on the political winds. Although, on the whole, neither Democrat has been a strong leader against NAFTA; but while Obama has merely not made repealing NAFTA a priority (and has argued that free trade must be coupled with fair trade), Clinton has been on the record specifically praising NAFTA (particularly for the economy of New York).
Tim Russert is pointing out the same quotes from Clinton; she was quoted during and immediately after the Clinton administration praising NAFTA. Clinton refused to commit to ending NAFTA within six months of her first day, saying instead that she would “re-negotiate”.
7:25 Clinton to Tim Russert: “You don’t have all the record”. No, we don’t. Because you haven’t released your damn records from the Office of the First Lady.
7:26 Incidentally, I’m just going to point out that as a Canadian who was able to enter the country through visas provided by NAFTA, I’m wary about ending NAFTA, because it will close the flow of educated temporary workers into the U.S. that are helping this nation’s science and technology industry.
Obama agrees with Clinton on this question — pretty much because that’s the only position that either candidate will take. NAFTA needs to be re-negotiated to protect certain areas of the economy. I think Obama comes out stronger on this issue precisely because Clinton’s record suggests a strong flip-flop on the strength of NAFTA, where she has selectively re-written history to distance herself from an unpopular achievement of the Bill Clinton administration.
7:34 Very interesting. The last three questions have built off the existing conflict between the two candidates. This latest question is about Clinton’s comparison of Obama to Bush. I like how Obama is handling the question: he is staying level-headed, and is looking very presidential, again. Considering that all he has to do is not fuck up, he’s in a good place right now.
For this question, Obama just needs to demonstrate that he knows about foreign policy. He can’t get dragged into Clinton’s heavy-handed rhetoric. And he’s doing a good job staying above her mud-slinging, even while responding.
7:37 Clinton is attacking Obama as a speech-maker in 2002. Clinton re-writes history in suggesting that Obama changed his stance on the war. That’s absolutely not true: he argued against going into war irresponsibly, however, once we were quagmired in Iraq, every responsible senator would vote to keep the troops funded.
And, god. Clinton brings up the “Obama would bomb Pakistan” remark. Which is not what he said. He said he would have to take action against verified terrorist training camps if a foreign country continued to let them exist within their borders, doing nothing despite repeated attempts by the U.S. to end them. Which is exactly what happened earlier this year. Does Clinton think we are stupid?
7:40 I like Obama’s “bus in ditch” metaphor. Obama was against driving the bus into the ditch, unlike Bush, Edwards, and Clinton, herself. However, once we’re in the ditch, there are only so many ways to get out. Good answer!
7:41 Obama makes another good point. How can Clinton debate McCain on the war, when she voted to authorize the war? Maybe this is a good time to remind readers that national polls show Obama ahead, and that McCain loses to Obama but wins against Clinton.
7:45 Uh-oh. Clinton has a new attack: Obama chairs the subcommittee over Europe which has jurisdiction over NATO. So why hasn’t Obama held a substantive hearing over Europe’s role in Afghanistan? Well, Obama became chair when he started his presidential campaign — it’s a little hard to do that when you’re running for president. What substantial initiatives has Clinton led while she’s been running for the presidency?
7:48 Wow. Just, wow. Okay, Clinton is getting a bit too hostile. She has been interrupting both Brian Williams and Tim Russert throughout the debate, and Williams has finally had to cut her off to go to commerical. Clinton, tone it down. It doesn’t do you any good to piss off the moderators — in fact, it gives away what possible advantage you might have had with that SNL skit. Playing nice with the moderators would have made it seem like you really are getting unfair treatment from the moderators; interrupting everyone only makes it look like any unfair treatment is justified.
7:52 Okay, back from commercial break. And now the moderators are asking for Obama’s response on Clinton’s way insulting sarcastic moment. Apparently that was the wrong clip — Obama compliments Clinton for her delivery. Obama actually praises Clinton for her charges. ‘Scu me? Did I hear that right? Did Obama just praise Clinton for taking a reasonable line of attack against him?
Talk about ending conventional politics. I have never heard of that before. He praised her and then argued that he’s more than just words. He has passed several good pieces of legislation, many of them by bringing together folks from across the aisle to agree to better the common good.
I like how Obama notes that “no one has been listening to [the underprivileged]”. While he is explicitly referring to Bush and Cheney, the implied statement is that Clinton, too, is not listening to the little guy by resorting to these kinds of cheap jabs. It reminds us that conventional politics has done nothing for the average American, and Clinton’s resorting to these kinds of attacks are distracting us from the issues that matter.
7:58 To Obama’s dismay, Brian Williams cut off Obama’s response to Clinton’s free several minutes to discuss her accomplishments. We’re shown Obama’s argument that Clinton is casting herself as a “co-president”. Personally, I don’t like the “co-president” argument; there is one president in the Constitution, and I think Hillary has been over-stating her role in Bill Clinton’s administration. And I certainly wouldn’t be comfortable with two people sharing the role of the president, because the First Lady is not an elected position.
8:02 Nice rebuttal. Obama strongly clarifies that his campaign is not saying that hope is enough, and that hard work is also required, particularly in getting special interests out of Washington. But, it doesn’t help to be taking money from lobbyists.
8:04 Y’know, I actually do think that Obama should keep his word on taking public funds. I understand that he’s turning away a ridiculous amount of money by doing that; and we, the supporters, have given him a bunch of money that he’d be turning away. He’d give away a huge advantage by doing that.
But that’s his word. And he should keep it. We’ll support Obama in other ways, if he can’t take our money.
8:05 Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you, Tim Russert. I want to know how Clinton has gotten her money and how she can give herself $5 million dollars. Clinton is certainly not the candidate of transparency. She’ll release those records “later” — which means, after Democrats can’t get mad at her and cost her votes.
What is she waiting for? Obama released them earlier this month. There is no other Democrat in the race.
Russert also asks Clinton why Bill Clinton is standing in the way of releasing the records from her office? She hedges the question, arguing that she’s “trying”.
8:08 Oh my. Obama is asked by Russert whether he accepts Louis Farrakhan’s endorsement. Good answer, I think. Obama has been on the record denouncing Farrakhan’s anti-Semitism. Russert, I think, is trying to get a rise out of Obama, but I don’t think there’s any meat to this question.
In fact, I think this whole question is really ridiculous. How does Obama keep the support of Jewish Americans because Farrakhan supported Obama? Obama has no control over what Farrakhan says. Russert seems to be asking Obama to choose between African Americans and Jewish Americans — this is a false, unnecessary choice.
8:13 Wow, okay. Y’know what? That’s unfair. Clinton is drawing a parallel between the Independence Party in New York with Farrakhan. But Farrakhan is an influential African American figure — rejecting Farrakhan for his anti-Semitic statements ignores Farrakhan’s contributions to the African American community. Clinton’s statements accuse Obama of buying into Farrakhan’s anti-Semitism by refusing to “reject” Farrakhan’s support.
But, Obama gets applause from the audience for agreeing to use the term “reject” if Clinton feels so strongly about it. So he both rejects and denounce Farrakhan. Okay, sure. I still think it’s unfortunate that Obama was forced to choose between African American and Jewish American interests; why can’t a politician approve of Farrakhan’s contributions to Black American while simultaneously criticizing Farrakhan’s stances on Judaism? This line of questioning seems distinctly racialized to me.
8:19 Back from commercial breaks, and Obama is questioned on being rated one of the most liberal senators in the Senate. It’s a silly question — Obama addresses the two votes that made the difference, and will most likely move to addressing the large number of independents who support his candidacy.
Whoops, and there he goes.
8:26 Will she really? Hmmm… in response to the question as to what votes or words Clinton or Obama would take back, Clinton comes the closest she has throughout the campaign to admitting she was wrong to vote to authorize the war in Iraq. Well, I guess that’s appropriate given this was the last scheduled debate of the Democratic primary season. She segues smartly into her prepared closing statements.
8:27 Obama’s answer to this question bringing up the Terri Schiavo case, and says he would have taken back the fact that he did not take the intiative to stop intervention in that case.
Obama transitions into his closing remarks, which begin by him praising Clinton as an opponent. I think that’s very classy, and doesn’t have a valedictory tone as Clinton’s did. Especially because Clinton’s closing remarks did not include a thanking of Obama. Obama acknowledges Clinton, but continues on by emphasizing his commitment to changing Washington.
8:30 Whoops, a false end. The final question, Obama is asked what question Clinton needs to answer before being the nominee. Again, a classy answer. Obama says that Clinton would be a good nominee — better than McCain — but Obama would of course be better. Electroman remarks that Obama is being incredibly conciliatory here, but I really think he’s being very classy. I like Obama more now, if that’s even possible.
8:33 Clinton gets the second applause of the night by saying she’s honored to be running to be the first female president. Clinton seems — probably unsurprisingly — less genuine in her praise of Obama as a worthy opponent for the nomination, given her strident attacks of Obama all weekend.
As the debate winds to a close, I wonder whether Clinton has succeeded in knocking Obama down, as she needed to in this, her final debate appearance. Clinton’s strategy was basically to throw everything, and the kitchen sink, at Obama to try and rattle him into making a mistake. But I don’t think Obama made a mistake tonight, and Clinton came off as far too ardent, attacking Obama on virtually every response he gave, and yielding nothing until that final answer. I think while Clinton probably reinvigorated her supporters, she earned very little new support. Meanwhile, Obama — who admittedly only had to not fuck up — held his ground and even got in the better, sound-byte-able answers.
I think Obama won.
If anyone is interested in joining the excitement of the HRC dinner, I suggest you check out the live feed at Bilerico. Bil Browning is at the dinner and taking questions live. Some highlights from Obama’s speech thus far (all provided via twitter)
